Cinematographer Mahlon Todd Williams on set (photo courtesy of Gabby Belzer)
Why were you interested in Legends of Tomorrow? Were you interested in superheroes before?
I did a show a while ago called Painkiller Jane, which is based on a comic book, and I had a lot of fun shooting it. In between, I did various shows that had different genres. But coming back to the superhero genre was great. It allowed us to do a lot of fantastical lighting and camerawork. And the fact that there was going to be an action sequence or two each episode was fun, because as a camera assistant, a lot of the work I ended up doing was on second units on features, where you do all the stunts for car crashes.
So, for me, it was a bit of a homecoming. I actually got to create and shoot action sequences … Just the superpowers that the characters have are fun to work within, and the rules of regular life don’t fully apply, which is great. It allows us to create different looks and different feels and try different camera techniques or shooting techniques.
Speaking of which, what’s your thought process when you approach an action sequence, especially if it involves heavy visual effects?
We usually have a lot of team meetings in pre-production about whatever action sequence we’re about to do. The general thinking is, one, is it all going to be practical? Is it a fight scene? Are people throwing punches or using objects in a room to fight with, sort of a Jackie Chan-style fighting where you’re in a room and a ladder is there, and he’d use as a weapon and you’d create a fight around that?
Sometimes, there’s a portion of the fight that’s practical and a portion where there’s a superpower being used, or somebody walking through a time portal at the beginning of the fight or leaving that way, or they’re flying in. As they fly in, they’re a digital version of the character; once they land, then they turn into the real version of the person. So, is there an effects element? If there is, that dictates whether we can use smoke in the shot or where we can move the camera and how we can move the camera. If you’re going to move it, is it okay to shoot handheld? Or does it need to be on a dolly with very precise moves?
So, that’s the start. Then, it depends on how elaborate a fight scene it is. Like, do we need to have stunt people to double some of the actors? Because some of the movements are so intricate or dangerous that you need to replace the actors. We need to figure out which angles to shoot so that you can get a stunt double in the shot, but you can’t quite see that it’s a double as opposed to the cast member. And once we find the location, what time of day are we shooting? Do we need to light it, and if we need to light it, how are we going to shoot it? Where do we stick the lights so we don’t see ? So, the lighting kind of gets dictated by that. If somebody needs to fly in on cables, we go to the wardrobe department. You need to have two sets of costumes — one for the actor, one for the stunt double. If they’re coming in on wires, we need to hook something to them …
So, it starts on a very simple level: what’s the fight scene? Who’s in it? Are they standing still? Are they on a boat? Do they fly in? Are they driving a car while they’re fighting? It winds up being multilayered and usually involving six or seven departments at least coming together. Each department solves one little piece of the puzzle, so eventually, once all the departments figure out what they need or don’t need, we can put the pieces all together and create the puzzle that we’re trying to solve.
So, you know how everything is going to look before you film?
Mostly. Once we get through all those meetings, the stunt people will go from the script and do what’s called the pre-viz. They shoot that on video and cut it together, so we get a rough idea of what the action’s going to be, where people are going to be within the frame.
And from that, we adjust how we were going to shoot it and what we’re going to see. Does the art department need to build a set? Do they need to build a side to the set because we’re going to swing over ? Or, if we’re going to be outside, do locations need to block off a certain section of the road that we’re on, or do they need to block off the whole road? It starts to snowball, but it’s great. Each department gets a creative say in the final outcome, and it usually makes a better piece when all the departments are able to get together and solve a problem.
How does your approach to fight sequences differ from your approach to conversations? A lot of the time, it’s easy to take the cinematography of scenes where characters just sit and talk for granted. How do you keep that interesting?
On our show, even if it is just talking, we like to keep the camera moving. Part of that is, whenever we can, we try and keep the characters moving. So, that comes down to some of the blocking of the actors. The director will go to a location, and we’ll have the script with us and read through the scene and see what dialogue is being said and if that relates to something specific in the location. We’ll sort of walk around and figure out, “Well, there are six people in this scene, and it’s a two-page scene. But for the first page of that scene, there are only two people talking.”
A lot of the time, we’ll set it up so that we just see two people enter a room and we dolly back. Just as the third person in the script is about to say line of dialogue, they appear in the shot… And then, they take over. The first two people walk out of the shot. The third person comes from the back, walks up into their close-up as they’re talking, and as they’re charging, we hinge around them with the camera. That movement will introduce another two characters, and they say their lines as they’re walking in. As we do that, the camera just keeps constantly moving.
So, what you see isn’t actors just standing on one mark, delivering their lines. We try to keep movements in the shot as much as possible and as fluid as possible.
When you shoot, how do the characters and their dynamics affect the cinematography?
Getting back to the fact that when you see , you don’t really notice it, when you go into the script, you want to figure out what the general story is. Then, each of the characters have some kind of arc during the episode you’re shooting. And depending on where they are in that arc, we shoot them in a certain way to help tell that story or help the performance … If someone’s saying something the audience realizes isn’t true, we’ll shoot them in a certain way so you feel that while you’re watching. Or they may be saying something, but there’s a picture of another character behind them so that when you look at the shot, it’s not just about the character delivering the line. The character may be saying something completely false because there’s a piece of information in the background stating that …
What makes cinematography great is that you can help the audience feel what the character is feeling at that moment. If they’re off sitting and thinking about something that happened in the previous scene, or if they’re alone and there’s a big wide shot and they’re off to one corner or whatever, it helps tell that story. We’re constantly looking for ways to shoot scenes so the shot not only looks cool, but it looks cool and tells a story. Those two combined is when an episode really starts to sing.
Are there any moments – specific shots, sequences, or details – that you’re really proud of from Legends of Tomorrow?
Yeah, every episode, I think. But this season in particular, the Jack the Ripper episode we did set in 1897 England. The set built inside the studio, and there’s fog and it’s dark — night — and the set itself creates this look. There are a bunch of sequences in there that I’m proud of. And we did a P.T. Barnum episode [“Freakshow”], which I really am super proud of. The wardrobe is amazing in it. The set that we had built looks unbelievable. And even down to the casting of the background people, they all feel like they actually came out of that time period. Everything we did with the circus, there’s a quality to it that worked out really well.
Is there anything you’ve been wanting to do but haven’t gotten the chance to because of practical reasons or because it didn’t fit into the story?
We’ve been lucky; we’ve been able to do quite a bit. I’d love to do another Western. In genres, I’d love to do a bank heist episode with the guys. And something crazy-epic where we could go on location. It would be great to go and shoot something in a desert. I don’t know if there are any specific shots, I guess more sort of genres. Like, I did a space episode last season [“Moonshot”], which was a lot of fun because we built some cool sets, and we had to make it look like the guys were floating around in zero gravity inside the spaceship. It would be good fun to go back and try to do that again on another episode.
Personally, I’d be interested in one that’s based off film noir. I was wondering, is the show open to experimentation? Like, would you be able to shoot something in black-and-white if you wanted to?
I’m not sure if we could go fully black-and-white. We might be able to, but yeah, it would be amazing to be able to do that. The other thing that we’ve looked into but I don’t know if we can broadcast it is more of a widescreen 2.40 aspect ratio. It would be cool to have an episode that we were able to frame like that. But black-and-white would be amazing, like if we were going to do a tribute to Nosferatu or something like that. That’s when it would be appropriate to do a full-on black-and-white episode. If we could get the network to OK that, I’d be more than happy to shoot it.
This isn’t specifically related to Legends of Tomorrow, but as a viewer, one of the things I’ve noticed that a lot of current shows use very dark lighting. I was wondering if you’ve noticed that too and, if so, why do you think that is?
Part of it is that aesthetically, people are getting a little more used to it, and it allows you to tell stories in a different way. One of my favorite quotes about cinematography is from Jordan Cronenweth, who did Blade Runner. He said, “It’s not what you light that matters; it’s what you don’t light that matters in the shot.” Sometimes, it’s better to not light, to maybe have someone standing in silhouette, and it becomes a stronger image. It doesn’t necessarily have to be super dark in the entire shot; you still have to be able to see the information that you’re supposed to be. But depending on what you choose to light, your eye is going to focus on certain areas.
You mentioned that you try to find light sources that fit the time period. Do you put a lot of emphasis on naturalism or realism when figuring out the show’s aesthetic?
Naturalism as far as, again, when you see a scene whether it’s on location or in a studio, you shouldn’t ever think, oh this is in a studio; it should just feel like a real location … So, some of the trick is to blend the location’s lighting that’s practical with something that’s fantastical, maybe fully CG or a combo. We try to ground it in sort of a false reality where we’re selling that this character has this power; they can do this.
So, do you consciously try not to over-stylize it?
We try to ride the thin line between getting as far fantastical as we can with the stuff we’re doing but staying just within the point where you’d look at it and think that would never happen. We’ve created something that’s cool and works for the story we’re telling in that scene or that shot, and you never really think we’ve created that … If we can get to that point, I think we hit it right with how big the shot can be, how big the movement with the camera can be, what we can get away with the lighting. It’s always trying to ride that thin line, I guess, where it’s a powerful image and it makes you feel a certain way, which works within the story.
How has the look of the show evolved? Do you feel like you’ve learned a lot along the way?
Oh yeah, every episode we’re constantly learning about what we’re creating, how we’re doing it. It’s always been an action show, and I think there’s been a little more comedy in the last two seasons. Some of the shot choices or lens choices help play that up. The first season had some comedy in it, but I don’t think it was quite as a mix of drama and comedy as it is now. So, I would say that’s the main thing that’s changed. And we’ve also progressed with the time period looks. We’re really trying to create a genre, a different style, for each episode.
A more general question: cinematography is historically not a particularly diverse field. You hear about some female or nonwhite cinematographers like Reed Morano or Bradford Young, but they’re rare. Why do you think it’s like that? Have you seen any progress in that regard lately?
I think it’s like a lot of things in previous years. For various reasons, certain groups didn’t have access to get to that position. It’s not that they didn’t have the talent; the opportunities weren’t there.
But more and more, the door has swung open for anybody and everybody to get involved. And part of that is the technological change. Before, if you wanted to shoot film, you needed to get a film camera and film stock and have it processed. That can be fairly pricey, depending on what you’re shooting. Not everybody had access to that or had access to go to a school. Like, I got into the industry and I didn’t know anybody. So, on that level, I was starting at ground zero. But I was able to go to film school. I had that behind me, and then I got into the union and I started working through that.
But it’s great seeing different cinematographers coming up. And it’s always cool seeing cinematographers from different countries getting shots at doing bigger projects. It’s always cool to see something online, whether it’s a trailer or somebody’s demo reel or a personal project, and it’s got a different point of view. I think it’s fantastic that the field is opening up and there are more voices out there, and there are more chances for those voices to present their ideas or tell a story…
And helps everybody, because everybody sees other people’s projects, and it’s like, “That’s super cool”, or “I liked how that looked”. Or “I would’ve never thought to shoot like that.” Because whether they’ve got a painting background or a photography background, or they don’t really have a visual arts background but more of an engineering background — whatever it is, however they grew up, informs where they place the camera, how they light a scene. All of that is mixed into whatever looks each cinematographer creates.
It’s always good to see people that have a different view or a different take on things, and it makes you question what you do, in a good way. It also builds more of a diverse community within that field. I think it’s nothing but a good thing.
Could you think of an example of something that you saw that changed your perspective and you’ve maybe incorporated it into your future work?
I’ve loved everything that Spike Lee in particular . Do the Right Thing, I thought, was awesome. You could tell that they obviously didn’t have a lot of money. And Earnest Dickerson, who shot it, had a certain style … A lot of the techniques they used, like wider lenses, ended up getting into music videos and commercials at the time. I was taken by it because I had never seen anything that was shot that way, or that you could get away with telling a story a certain way. It made you feel a certain way. There’s an energy to it that I hadn’t seen in other projects.
Even in Canada, in Vancouver, when I was going to film school … the movies that I’d seen that were Canadian productions and I really loved the way they were shot and the set design and the wardrobe and all that tended to come from Montreal. A lot of them were French-Canadian movies. I didn’t speak the language; they had subtitles. But even with that, there was something about the movies that caught my attention. I got into the stories. Sometimes I’d see the movies without subtitles and not really understand what all the dialogue was. But it sort of forced you into feeling how the movie made you feel. You got caught up with a character. For me, that was really powerful. It opened my eyes to being able to tell a story with just cinematography or sets or locations or wardrobe or the color of paint on the walls.
There was a lot of stuff within Hollywood that I liked, but there were some Hong Kong filmmakers that I loved. Chris Doyle’s work with Wong Kar-Wai is some of my favorite visuals. And, getting into smaller projects music videos and commercials, people can get away with more poetic imagery or storytelling.
It’s fun going to film festivals and just randomly picking a movie and being surprised by it. You don’t know anything about the filmmaker and try not to read anything about the movie, so you fully go in not knowing anything. As soon as the image comes on, you get pulled into the movie and the story the filmmakers were trying to tell. For me, that was always cool. Even in still photography, like Annie Leibovitz. Her portraits are fantastic, and the connection that you get looking at those images — it seems like there’s a bigger story than the single shot.
You made a good point that cinematography can be sort of a universal language.
For sure. When I travel doing documentaries, what I noticed is that a lot of these places … you don’t have to speak the language when you’re talking face-to-face. Somebody can be talking in Spanish, and I can be talking in English. But even if I can’t understand exactly what people are saying, you can read body language and energy. You can get a lot across just by physically being close to somebody and talking to them.
Being in a different location, both of you sitting and watching a sun setting or being in the middle of a busy street… there’s an energy to people that you connect with. You don’t have to speak the same language or be from the same country. You can be miles apart from how each of you were brought, but somehow seem to be even closer than some people in my neighborhood that I grew up with. And you’ve only met these people for five minutes or ten minutes, but there’s a connection.
It’s sort of the same thing with cinematography. You can be from any part of the world; you can have any upbringing or whatever level of education you have. None of that really matters. You can tell a story, and if it connects with you personally, it’s going to connect with other people.
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Legends of Tomorrow airs Tuesdays at 9 p.m. EST on The CW. You can follow Williams on Instagram, where he posts his artwork.